We need Randomness!

Published on June 30, 2008 By TheBigOne In Demigod

Random Heroes, Random Maps, Random Teams, Random Rules, Random everything.

You may ask "why?" now, here is the totally random answer : it's fun , see below.

We need an incentive to use Random Heroes , be it just that the opponent doesnt know what hero you have (like in Starcraft/Warcraft with the Races) or that you get a small bonus like a bit extra money as in Dota or even just special awards for playing random (which supcom failed to have).

Whats so cool about Random Heroes?

Random Heroes make for a more flexible and dynamic gameplay on the one side on the other side, people using random will whine alot less over pretended imbalances as they have a more unbiased point of view (won't stop them to complain about the real ones though - they will become more apparent even that way).

Now the Problem is that humans are lazy per definition and usually will stick to what they know and have mastered but humans are also opportunists who will happily take every small, even meaningless advantages/rewards. (ofc the higher the advantage the more humans will take the advantage over their lazyness).

Whats so cool about Random Maps ?

Random Maps can have 2 meanings:

1) Randomly generated Maps, like in all those Age of *someword* games. While not that suited for competitive game it increases the replayability alot and forces the players to adapt alot more. While I am totally sure that Demigod won't have a random map generator, given the nature of Demigod Maps being flat, not using tiles and probably not that complex at all (aside from the artistical stuff) it should be fairly easy to write a random map generator (like Warmaker for Warcraft II) and maybe even integrate it into the game itself as mod.

2) meaning that instead of picking a certain map in the game lobby you have some filters (size, type, maybe even a list) you can apply and the game is played on a randomly picked map which pass those filters. This will lead to a bigger variability in custom games (even if only some use it) - Automatch will pick a random map anyways I guess.

Whats so cool about Random Teams?

I always liked the concept of the RT ladder in WC3 as you needed adapt alot how to play depending on your ally and got to play together with players you normally would play (because they are either too good or too bad). And if you lose you can always say it's been the fault of the ally - with an fixed Team this causes controversies, I tried it often enough.

I'd like to have a random team option in custom games as well, you could argue that the nature of custom games itself results in being teamed up with random guys, but that is only true if you play "public customs". Would be cool to play a custom with friends and mix the teams up randomly without much effort (and even in Publics there is a tendency people will try to get on the team with the best player - especially the host as he has all the power^^).

Whats so cool about Random Rules?

If Demigod features different game modes (like the dota game modes or things like capture the flag, King of the Olymp or Free for all) I would totally like to have a button which says "random game mode". Different game modes are fun and if you have a random button nobody can argue which mode to pick in the game lobby.

Whats so cool about Random Everything?

if I tell , you will randomly forget to breath and thats something I don't want to happen.

I have no clue if that is a proper blog article , never written one before.

TheAurelOne

Comments (Page 2)

TheBigOne

on Jul 04, 2008

don't forget that Demigod has more than 1 map which increases a very important variable to gameplay and that Demigod is intended to be also fun in games with less than 10 players.

(and that Dota didnt start with 80 heroes either)

Nokthra

on Jul 04, 2008

More than one map, hm ok. Let´s see. We´ve got changing backgrounds and maybe not straight ways but curved ways. Wow, very variable

SH0KK

on Jul 04, 2008

80 heroes at release would be quite staggering to the normal player to comprehend. I'd prefer around 20something to 40something heroes.

I'm pondering the possibility of GPG releasing Demigods as content after the game is out considering they did it with supcom and t3h unit packs. Though it might not perfectly meld with the storyline. In supcom they could say "Oh look, the Cybrans invented some new shit." but in Demigod to add in new demigods would require some creative-ass writing/retconning.

Not to derail anything, but I do hope that it will be easier to get mods in GPG (IE:Auto DL like WCIII's BNet-sauce) and not have to mess around with the vault and leave the game to do so etc.

TheBigOne

on Jul 04, 2008

Nokthra, if you ever played a real rts (dunno if you did), you would know what a big impact the map layout makes on the gameplay.

just checked Dota 3.6 the last version made from the original author and there you had 32 heroes.

Nokthra

on Jul 04, 2008

I don´t know what you mean with real rts. I played a little Starcraft, Wc3 real, CoH, Generals etc.

The maps I´ve seen until now (only some screenshots in a magazine) are not very variable. If there will be more differences than I´ve seen (like version 1 vs. version 2) I will quiet down

TheBigOne

on Jul 04, 2008

imo your two examples are already quite different

, but before we have actually played it we can't be sure how different such a design would play in Demigod but I am quite optimistic about diverse gameplay.

I have never played CoH but in my opinion WC3 and Generals play quite similar on every map while Starcraft and Supreme Commander play completely different depending of the map.

Nokthra

on Jul 05, 2008

I would like some differences in height

Together with the fog of war it will be funny I think.

CoH is really good ... if the developers would clean up the online lobby

It´s very buged. But the gameplay is really good, I like it

The maps are verry different, too.

Renius01

on Jul 05, 2008

Do you mean differences in height of Demigods? Have you seen The Rook?

Nokthra

on Jul 05, 2008

No no. Sorry, I meant differences in height of the terrain.

Gnats3

on Jul 05, 2008

80 would be way too many Demigods; they would end up too similar. Most RTS games only have 3 to 10 factions and they don't get boring. This isn't quite the usual RTS but I see no reason why 10 to 20 Demigods would get boring quickly.

I think they said that maps won't have height differences.

Scyn

on Jul 30, 2008

I'm going to have to whole-heartedly agree with TBO on this. Randomness is an essential piece of the game when it comes to dynamics. Not to mention it keeps it fresh-feeling. Never a dull moment when you've opted to wage war with what you're dealt.

innociv

on Jul 31, 2008

ACk I wish i had jumped in sooner.
But I whole-heartiedly agree.
This is a large part of what made Diablo2 fun and very replayable, for starters!
However I DONT agree with random maps. I like the premade ones.

Randomness adds A LOT more replay value to things.
What if each game the amount of units traveling on each lane where in different amounts, and different types?

If they where all minotaurs, all the same amount every time.. Well then someone could just use the demigod that is best at killing them quickly and getting the most exp and leveling faster, no?
But the demigod that does that might be weaker if there where half ranged, half minotaurs, adn the ranged guys spread out, yada yada.
Or someone might always go to one lane that is more populated. But if the lanes vary +/- 25-50% or something someone wouldn't know where to go first.
Maybe random towers as well.
But both sides even, of course, not different randoms for either side.
That should be the default.. the way the game is designed, not an option. This would add randomness to the maps without random maps themselves.

And with Random teams, I agree too.
Stacked teams ARE NOT fun. They aren't fun for me on the winning side, there is no challenge. It isn't fun on the side against the stack.
Stacking is only fun for lamers.
There should be a way to play with your friends of course.. But there should be something done about stacking still, like matching you up against an equal team of friends.

And giving a bonus to people for choosing a random demigod would be good, yeah(like start at level 2, start with a random low level item, or start with more currency), and an option when starting a game to force-random.

Gnats3

on Jul 31, 2008

Randomizing the creeps could be bad, since then the game could be too much luck if you happen to have the Demigod that is best in that particular situation. It could work though.

Options to make things random are usually good.

mOoEyThEcOw

on Jul 31, 2008

First of all personally I'd prefer between 40-50 demigods, and of course post-release packs. And randomness defiantly has its value perhaps neutral shops/barracks have random choices of items/units available? to add a new one.

Also, on the point of abilities being repetative, I bet I could give you a list of 500(100 5 ability guys/50 10 ability guys) diffrent abilities applying to a game like demigod (from other games not ones I made up myself, I'm not that bored) And just cause abilities are similar doesn't mean that they become boring cause they are on 2 or 3 diffrent units, take for example DotA: pudge, clockwerk, and storm lord(? the storm panda) all three have a grapple like ability, and all three play differently, and use the spell differently for diffrent tactical reasons. Also remember that half (supposedly) of the demigods will be generals something unlike most DotA characters even begin to do (most would be "blurring the lines").

And finally about random heroes, I would barely be able to live without, when I play DotA I can almost NEVER play AP because I get bored of everything I've already played a couple times, so I play AR because no matter what I'll play (and if it is one of the 2 heroes I dislike strongly I'll -repick), also this brings up the point, adding a repick option could be useful for random, (especially choosing to go random in a game where you can pick) perhaps reducing the bonus you get for choosing random when repicking could offset?

innociv

on Aug 01, 2008

Randomizing the creeps could be bad, since then the game could be too much luck if you happen to have the Demigod that is best in that particular situation. It could work though.Options to make things random are usually good.

Which is sort of the point..
Presumably some demigods will have some minor RPS against each other. Like one demigod might have a slight advantage in a 1vs1 fight against another type, and disadvantages against others.

The random creeps could even that out, or make an even greater disparity.
And in such a case your team would want to gang up on such a person and keep them away from the lane that would benefit them the most, forcing them to a lane where they won't level as fast.

And in reply to the above.. 100 demigods would be silly. That'd be an utter waste of time for the artists to make all of those, and they'd all end up rehashes of one another to save time with coding and balancing them all.
I'd really hope for 12-18 demigods. That'd offer plenty of variety.
I'm betting we'll probably get 6-12.. but i'll still have fun as long as more come within 3-6 months.. After a year of no more demigods i'd probably forget about keeping up with the game. :/ I'm already forgetting about sins of a solar empire and it's 1.1 patch that's supposed to be coming since it's been taking so long..

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